Ive never heard before the idea that Southern Chinese were displaced by reunification dynasties. The South took over as population center during the Song, 1000-1100. Indeed it became the southern song because they lost the less populous north. The south grew 3 rice harvests a year from a champa rice hybrid from Vietnam or Cambodia which tripled Song population. The idea the south were so foreign that northern Chinese came down to massacre and displace is ... well any evidence? Because ive never heard this before.
Your central idea, stated a few times is that Chinese civilization died every dynastic fall and that Current china's ideas of their own continuity over millenua are just nationalist lies.
But there's other example. Greece's culture has Byzantine religion and language and Greeks feel descended from it. Demotic Greek is certainly different, the written language has shifted a bit, but its still there. It wasn't abolished by 400 year ottoman period. Southern China having so many millions more probably kept it's culture together through the darker times. After all, Han Chinese culture itself was formed during spring and autumn and warring states, even "darker" for chinas actual people then interdynastic periods. Those periods China was just divided the way it was for centuries before Shi Huangdi 's Qin Unification. "5 dynasties" and "12 kingdoms" disunity.
And in any case by Mongol era, south is much more populated. The colonization would be going south to north.
The Song are from the Yangtse. Further south -- Pearl River Delta, for instance -- was still a conquered-and-colonized, massacre-and-displace area.
Look up the history of the Qin conquest of the Baiyue. The south were so foreign that the northern Chinese came down to massacre and displace. This is so uncontoversial a statement that it's in Wikipedia with no argument!
Yes of course Qin times that's obvious the pearl river region wasn't even part of the zhou, spring and autumn or warring states periods.
I clearly wrote Song era onwards. Its a fact the south is the most populated area of China, due to the champa and hybrid rice revolution, 3 harvests a year. The song rulers might hail from Yangtze but the majority of subjects are southerners. Sinicized southerners. Grand canal shipped surplus rice up to north china. North china was no longer the economic center. Song lost the north entirely and continued for a few more centuries.
Its like the Eastern Roman empire. Sure the original ruling class and soldiers came from Italy. That's no longer the case by 100AD/CE as far as soldiers. The East took over, culturally , most of the famous literati like Ptolemy the astronomer are easterners. It had far more people and taxable resources and eventually shed Latin language.
South china was far more densely populated. No theyre not going to be displaced anymore by northern colonists. Colonization goes from dense populated areas to more vacant ones. Like the Great clearances of 900-1200s CE when Germans and others displaced the forest folk slavs while turning the old growth forests into plowland. The depopulated north subject to horsemen raids is the region most depopulated in times of disaster.
Thanks for this. I finally sat down and went through the whole history of China so I could get a good geographical outliner (similar to that provided by the McEvedy atlases for most of the world -- but he died before doing China). My conclusion: yeah, this is about right from an aerial-overhead satellite-image-height abstraction point of view.
The semi-exceptions to the pattern of waves of conquest coming out of Northern China are the dynasties of the Song (coming from the Yangtse, so not really from the north, but not from the south either), a couple of others out of Nanjing (or other Yangtse areas, who again mostly lost), Yuan (Mongols), Qing (Manchu/Jurchen), and arguably the KMT (from Guangdong, but they lost). But they're mostly not exceptions to the pattern of outward colonization where "China" is Beijing-Xian and the rest of it is colonies of various eras.
The southern coast really has been repeatedly conquered by Northern China, and treated during the conquest as an area filled with foreigners. The "first emperor" of the Qin dynasty was the first to do so, of course, violently conquering the entirely non-Chinese Baiyue, so this has been happening for some centuries.
During the Northern and Southern Dynasties period, government was split between Yellow-River-based countries and Yangtse-River-based countries, with the southern coast still being an area still largely of non-Han background, being colonized and subjugated by Chinese colonists. Eventually a Yellow-River-based group (Sui) defeated the Yangtse-River-based overlords of the south.
"It was during the Northern and Southern dynasties period that the earliest recorded mass migration of ethnic Han to southern China (south of the Yangtze River) took place. This sinicisation helped to develop the region from its previous state of being inhabited by isolated communities separated by vast uncolonized wilderness and other non-Han ethnic groups."
"During the Northern and Southern dynasties, the Yangtze valley transformed from a backwater frontier region with less than 25% of China's population to a major cultural center of China with 40% of China's population, and after China was subsequently unified under the Tang dynasty, they became the core area of Chinese culture."
-- Wikipedia on Northern and Southern Dynasties.
So, Chinese colonial expansion. Anyway, the southern coast (Pearl River Delta, Fujian, what's now northern Vietnam, etc.) was still ethnically non-Han at this time, and appears to have been colonized primarily during the Tang imperial period. When the Tang empire collapses, the south breaks up along natural lines during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (the Ten Kingdoms being logical polities), before being reconquered by the Song. The Song imperium lasts until Kublai conquers everything north of Vietnam.
Guangdong was colonized early enough that the descendants of the colonists are "native" now. But there's still a colonization-displacement history there.
There is still conflict between the descendants of aboriginal inhabitants of India (now "scheduled tribes") and the descendants of the Indo-European invaders of *1400 BC*. Guangdong was primarily colonized 1000 years ago, which is much much later than that, though the cultural merger and "sinicization" has been more thorough.
BTW, the whole history fits the pattern of agriculturally productive areas with no birth control creating excess population which spills out in waves of colonization. (Also notable in Europe, as you've noted.) This means it's going to END now that they have birth control.
China (Beijing/Xian) is a colonial-settler empire just like Russia (Moscow) or France (Paris) or England (London) or Spain (Madrid) or Portugal (Lisbon) or Rome (uh, Rome) was. Not an uncommon thing. (Tibet and Xinkiang, late conquests, were conquered by the Qing empire during the European colonial giant-empire-building period, just like Vladivostok or Mexico or India; the Chinese imperial control was reasserted in the 1950s around the time Stalin was reasserting control over the rest of Central Asia; it's all the same.)
But most of the colonial-settler empires have decolonized, decentralized, and broken up in the modern era. Even the areas dominated by the descendants of colonists (South America, North America) or who speak the language of the colonizer (Ireland) tend to leave the empire, because this is not an era in which empires are practical.
This is, put bluntly, an era of small countries and breakups of empires. This was evaded in the Chinese Empire by extremely competent technocratic management by Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao -- nobody wants to leave when you have a *competent* government -- they're rare enough! I don't think it'll survive Xi Jinping, who isn't competent, and who is actively alienating practically everyone in numerous ways while making himself dictator. The post-Xi government, if it was particuarly competent and friendly, *might* manage to reconquer all the territories currently controlled by Beijing -- but that really isn't the military-geopolitical trend for the last 75 years. The current state of tech appears to mean more countries, not fewer. It's not a trend which a sensible leader would oppose. Loose federations like the EU seem far more viable than large countries.
There are four oversized empires which have yet to break up: Russia, the US, China, and India. The odds that any of them survive much longer is low. Some may break up *de facto* rather than *de jure*, just like the Holy Roman Empire existed for centuries after it stopped really being a country. (India's many repeated rounds of decentralization and transfer of power to provinces, which have also been repeatedly reorganized around linguistic and cultural communities of interest, is a sort of highly effective preemptive strike against national breakup -- if you already have autonomy, who needs independence -- although Modi's attempts at centralization make national breakup more likely.)
Seriously, this should be required reading for all the naive pundits who unthinkingly sleep walk into regurgitating propaganda of "5000 years of Chinese history" etc.
Some may argue that there are only two large civilizations on Earth: West Asia and East Asia. I disagree. The East Asia civilization also came from West Asia through Inner Asia land route. Its time was much late than South Asia. And, to be honest, East Asia civilization was more backward than its South Asia and Inner Asia counterparts. The prototype of most East Asian civilization's meme and technology can be found in South Asia and Inner Asia.
Xia was originally in Bacteria, then in Ordos, then in the Fen River Basin, and finally moved to Luoyang in the Warring States Period, which essentially reflecting the history of Inner Asian colonists came into East Asia. This route from Outer Iran to Luoyang was the Road of King Wuling of Zhao, also known as the Yunzhong Road. Later, it is called the Shuofang Road on which the Xianbei Empire relied for its livelihood. Of course, Xia was not in East Asia, but in West Asia or Inner Asia. Heluo was the port of Inner Asia, which is equivalent to Shanghai in modern times. What Confucius meant by defending Huaxia was to say that we are all Inner Asians, which is equivalent to the Shanghailanders saying that we are all Europeans.
Ive never heard before the idea that Southern Chinese were displaced by reunification dynasties. The South took over as population center during the Song, 1000-1100. Indeed it became the southern song because they lost the less populous north. The south grew 3 rice harvests a year from a champa rice hybrid from Vietnam or Cambodia which tripled Song population. The idea the south were so foreign that northern Chinese came down to massacre and displace is ... well any evidence? Because ive never heard this before.
Your central idea, stated a few times is that Chinese civilization died every dynastic fall and that Current china's ideas of their own continuity over millenua are just nationalist lies.
But there's other example. Greece's culture has Byzantine religion and language and Greeks feel descended from it. Demotic Greek is certainly different, the written language has shifted a bit, but its still there. It wasn't abolished by 400 year ottoman period. Southern China having so many millions more probably kept it's culture together through the darker times. After all, Han Chinese culture itself was formed during spring and autumn and warring states, even "darker" for chinas actual people then interdynastic periods. Those periods China was just divided the way it was for centuries before Shi Huangdi 's Qin Unification. "5 dynasties" and "12 kingdoms" disunity.
And in any case by Mongol era, south is much more populated. The colonization would be going south to north.
Check your maps.
The Song are from the Yangtse. Further south -- Pearl River Delta, for instance -- was still a conquered-and-colonized, massacre-and-displace area.
Look up the history of the Qin conquest of the Baiyue. The south were so foreign that the northern Chinese came down to massacre and displace. This is so uncontoversial a statement that it's in Wikipedia with no argument!
Yes of course Qin times that's obvious the pearl river region wasn't even part of the zhou, spring and autumn or warring states periods.
I clearly wrote Song era onwards. Its a fact the south is the most populated area of China, due to the champa and hybrid rice revolution, 3 harvests a year. The song rulers might hail from Yangtze but the majority of subjects are southerners. Sinicized southerners. Grand canal shipped surplus rice up to north china. North china was no longer the economic center. Song lost the north entirely and continued for a few more centuries.
Its like the Eastern Roman empire. Sure the original ruling class and soldiers came from Italy. That's no longer the case by 100AD/CE as far as soldiers. The East took over, culturally , most of the famous literati like Ptolemy the astronomer are easterners. It had far more people and taxable resources and eventually shed Latin language.
South china was far more densely populated. No theyre not going to be displaced anymore by northern colonists. Colonization goes from dense populated areas to more vacant ones. Like the Great clearances of 900-1200s CE when Germans and others displaced the forest folk slavs while turning the old growth forests into plowland. The depopulated north subject to horsemen raids is the region most depopulated in times of disaster.
Thanks for this. I finally sat down and went through the whole history of China so I could get a good geographical outliner (similar to that provided by the McEvedy atlases for most of the world -- but he died before doing China). My conclusion: yeah, this is about right from an aerial-overhead satellite-image-height abstraction point of view.
The semi-exceptions to the pattern of waves of conquest coming out of Northern China are the dynasties of the Song (coming from the Yangtse, so not really from the north, but not from the south either), a couple of others out of Nanjing (or other Yangtse areas, who again mostly lost), Yuan (Mongols), Qing (Manchu/Jurchen), and arguably the KMT (from Guangdong, but they lost). But they're mostly not exceptions to the pattern of outward colonization where "China" is Beijing-Xian and the rest of it is colonies of various eras.
The southern coast really has been repeatedly conquered by Northern China, and treated during the conquest as an area filled with foreigners. The "first emperor" of the Qin dynasty was the first to do so, of course, violently conquering the entirely non-Chinese Baiyue, so this has been happening for some centuries.
During the Northern and Southern Dynasties period, government was split between Yellow-River-based countries and Yangtse-River-based countries, with the southern coast still being an area still largely of non-Han background, being colonized and subjugated by Chinese colonists. Eventually a Yellow-River-based group (Sui) defeated the Yangtse-River-based overlords of the south.
"It was during the Northern and Southern dynasties period that the earliest recorded mass migration of ethnic Han to southern China (south of the Yangtze River) took place. This sinicisation helped to develop the region from its previous state of being inhabited by isolated communities separated by vast uncolonized wilderness and other non-Han ethnic groups."
"During the Northern and Southern dynasties, the Yangtze valley transformed from a backwater frontier region with less than 25% of China's population to a major cultural center of China with 40% of China's population, and after China was subsequently unified under the Tang dynasty, they became the core area of Chinese culture."
-- Wikipedia on Northern and Southern Dynasties.
So, Chinese colonial expansion. Anyway, the southern coast (Pearl River Delta, Fujian, what's now northern Vietnam, etc.) was still ethnically non-Han at this time, and appears to have been colonized primarily during the Tang imperial period. When the Tang empire collapses, the south breaks up along natural lines during the Five Dynasties and Ten Kingdoms period (the Ten Kingdoms being logical polities), before being reconquered by the Song. The Song imperium lasts until Kublai conquers everything north of Vietnam.
Guangdong was colonized early enough that the descendants of the colonists are "native" now. But there's still a colonization-displacement history there.
There is still conflict between the descendants of aboriginal inhabitants of India (now "scheduled tribes") and the descendants of the Indo-European invaders of *1400 BC*. Guangdong was primarily colonized 1000 years ago, which is much much later than that, though the cultural merger and "sinicization" has been more thorough.
BTW, the whole history fits the pattern of agriculturally productive areas with no birth control creating excess population which spills out in waves of colonization. (Also notable in Europe, as you've noted.) This means it's going to END now that they have birth control.
China (Beijing/Xian) is a colonial-settler empire just like Russia (Moscow) or France (Paris) or England (London) or Spain (Madrid) or Portugal (Lisbon) or Rome (uh, Rome) was. Not an uncommon thing. (Tibet and Xinkiang, late conquests, were conquered by the Qing empire during the European colonial giant-empire-building period, just like Vladivostok or Mexico or India; the Chinese imperial control was reasserted in the 1950s around the time Stalin was reasserting control over the rest of Central Asia; it's all the same.)
But most of the colonial-settler empires have decolonized, decentralized, and broken up in the modern era. Even the areas dominated by the descendants of colonists (South America, North America) or who speak the language of the colonizer (Ireland) tend to leave the empire, because this is not an era in which empires are practical.
This is, put bluntly, an era of small countries and breakups of empires. This was evaded in the Chinese Empire by extremely competent technocratic management by Jiang Zemin and Hu Jintao -- nobody wants to leave when you have a *competent* government -- they're rare enough! I don't think it'll survive Xi Jinping, who isn't competent, and who is actively alienating practically everyone in numerous ways while making himself dictator. The post-Xi government, if it was particuarly competent and friendly, *might* manage to reconquer all the territories currently controlled by Beijing -- but that really isn't the military-geopolitical trend for the last 75 years. The current state of tech appears to mean more countries, not fewer. It's not a trend which a sensible leader would oppose. Loose federations like the EU seem far more viable than large countries.
There are four oversized empires which have yet to break up: Russia, the US, China, and India. The odds that any of them survive much longer is low. Some may break up *de facto* rather than *de jure*, just like the Holy Roman Empire existed for centuries after it stopped really being a country. (India's many repeated rounds of decentralization and transfer of power to provinces, which have also been repeatedly reorganized around linguistic and cultural communities of interest, is a sort of highly effective preemptive strike against national breakup -- if you already have autonomy, who needs independence -- although Modi's attempts at centralization make national breakup more likely.)
Seriously, this should be required reading for all the naive pundits who unthinkingly sleep walk into regurgitating propaganda of "5000 years of Chinese history" etc.
Fascinating insights!
Some may argue that there are only two large civilizations on Earth: West Asia and East Asia. I disagree. The East Asia civilization also came from West Asia through Inner Asia land route. Its time was much late than South Asia. And, to be honest, East Asia civilization was more backward than its South Asia and Inner Asia counterparts. The prototype of most East Asian civilization's meme and technology can be found in South Asia and Inner Asia.
Xia was originally in Bacteria, then in Ordos, then in the Fen River Basin, and finally moved to Luoyang in the Warring States Period, which essentially reflecting the history of Inner Asian colonists came into East Asia. This route from Outer Iran to Luoyang was the Road of King Wuling of Zhao, also known as the Yunzhong Road. Later, it is called the Shuofang Road on which the Xianbei Empire relied for its livelihood. Of course, Xia was not in East Asia, but in West Asia or Inner Asia. Heluo was the port of Inner Asia, which is equivalent to Shanghai in modern times. What Confucius meant by defending Huaxia was to say that we are all Inner Asians, which is equivalent to the Shanghailanders saying that we are all Europeans.
Re your argument of Rome and collapse: Rome had a continuity in Byzantium except the language was Greek.